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      Edited by ryoji
    • "Star / Stars" is an interesting word study, they appear exactly 66 times (63 verses) that I can see:

      Gen_1:16  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
      Gen_15:5  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
      Gen_22:17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
      Gen_26:4  And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
      Gen_37:9  And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
      Exo_32:13  Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
      Num_24:17  I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
      Deu_1:10  The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
      Deu_4:19  And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
      Deu_10:22  Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.
      Deu_28:62  And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
      Jdg_5:20  They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
      1Ch_27:23  But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.
      Neh_4:21  So we laboured in the work: and half of them held the spears from the rising of the morning till the stars appeared.
      Neh_9:23  Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
      Job_3:9  Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:
      Job_9:7  Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
      Job_22:12  Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!
      Job_25:5  Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
      Job_38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
      Psa_8:3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
      Psa_136:9  The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
      Psa_147:4  He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
      Psa_148:3  Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
      Ecc_12:2  While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
      Isa_13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
      Isa_14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
      Jer_31:35  Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
      Eze_32:7  And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
      Dan_8:10  And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
      Dan_12:3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
      Joe_2:10  The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
      Joe_3:15  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
      Amo_5:8  Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:
      Amo_5:26  But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
      Oba_1:4  Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
      Nah_3:16  Thou hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven: the cankerworm spoileth, and flieth away.
      Mat_2:2  Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
      Mat_2:7  Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
      Mat_2:9  When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
      Mat_2:10  When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
      Mat_24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      Mar_13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
      Luk_21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
      Act_7:43  Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
      Act_27:20  And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
      1Co_15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
      Heb_11:12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
      2Pe_1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
      Jud_1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
      Rev_1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
      Rev_1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
      Rev_2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
      Rev_2:28  And I will give him the morning star.
      Rev_3:1  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
      Rev_6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
      Rev_8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
      Rev_8:11  And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
      Rev_8:12  And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
      Rev_9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
      Rev_12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
      Rev_12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
      Rev_22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

      That star video(s) is odd, yes our sun does look like that,
      buy a solar telescope and look for yourself, you can see the flares,
      the sun-spot's going around, etc...

      But in terms of 'distant' stars scientists know basically nothing,
      just points of light: brightness, color, position / movement;
      everything else crossing over that theoretical speculation line I talked about.

      As someone who has done telescope viewing and astrophotography,
      they give a totally different perspective from one another.

      For example seeing saturn / jupiter / mars by eye through telescope looks like the nasa images,
      I've never seen anything like those p900 images/video (by eye) seems almost intentionally deceptive.

      Cameras add an incredible amount of problems,
      extra lens elements (+distortion)
      conversion from optical to an electronic signal (+distortion)
      video format compression (+distortion)
      YouTube compression (+distortion)

      That is on top of just your ordinary atmospheric distortion / vibration.

      To get, for example, mars in the eyepiece of a telescope,
      just someone lightly walking nearby will have it shaking all over the place.

      You can even see the vibration of your heartbeat in the telescope.

      I can't find a straight answer to what the altitude of the firmament dome is,
      but even considering the highest numbers I've seen
      it wouldn't correspond what the telescope is observing.

      If the star/dome was around the edge (ice-wall) you could get much closer [% change in distance]
      to the stars depending on what part of the world you are on, which should make them appear radically different,
      this is never observed.

      • Like 1
    • 5 hours ago, Lois Janet said:

      I used to watch them and see them flash bright different colours.

      Most likely the fluctuations we see in those Nikon zoom videos is either because of atmospheric refraction or the "waters above" of Genesis, which separate white light into many colors like a prism.

      Well, in Revelation a star is referred to as a "him":

      Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

      If it's a "him" it can't be just an inanimate burning light.

      Edited by ryoji
    • Quote

      "where are the stars? its black!"

      It's about contrast, both to the eye or cameras (which are worse) you can't see incredibly faint things and bright things at the same time.

      There are reports of those in space being able to see many more stars under the right lighting conditions [no other bright objects in field of view, eyes adapted] but that would fall under the category of everything and everyone being a grand conspiracy so would not be considered by skeptics.

      On a dark night try to look at the stars with a bright flashlight shining in your eyes... to get an idea of the effect.

      Also (partially) why there are fewer visible stars with moonlight present.

      As said cameras are even worse at this [dynamic range] so that is why in any image that also has a bright object [earth, moon] there are no stars visible.


      Why can't we get a photo of earth?

      There are many images of earth, the commonly referenced 'fake' images [compositions] cover a wide range of purposes and reasons for creation, it's like taking a panorama photo where your phone takes a series of photos and stiches them together to make one that is very large, it is a composition but doesn't mean it is not of something real. (some of them are modified to absurd levels, and to be fair at that point not suitable as evidence, but there are 1000's and 1000's that are not... edited)

      Although some images are heavily modified, and the ones that aren't (i.e. I think there is a Japanese satellite in geo-sync orbit constantly taking single frame un-edited images of earth] of course again falls under the category of everything and everyone being a grand conspiracy so would not be considered by skeptics.


      If the moon causes a solar eclipse why is the shape off? Because with moon phases there is a distinct "nail clipping" shape. But solar eclipse is a different shadow.

      It's about spatial awareness, the moon has a "nail clipping" shape because that is the nature of a shadow across a sphere, not sure what you mean by shape of the solar eclipse shadow because it is blocking the light directly unless you mean the shadow it would make on the ground...


      Also I asked my friend who is a pilot and he says they don't account for the curvature because they are "too low down" and to see the curvature you'd have to be 60,000ft in the air.

      Planes, among other things, don't fly in a 'straight line' depending how you define that but rather a constant altitude and direction with constant compensation taking place for a variety of things in real time, mostly wind.

      You could ask him to plot a flight path [perhaps even fly it] with his pilot software (or the old charts) that is 3 equal distances with 3 right angles which on a sphere would put you back where you started but not so if it was flat, again of course this would fall under the category of everything and everyone being a grand conspiracy so would not be considered by skeptics.


      o see the curvature you'd have to be 60,000ft in the air. There are some balloon photos if you look it up and horizon is looking flat...

      It may 'look' flat, but it isn't (measured); which will than be clamed as some kind of camera lens distortion even though camera lens distortion can be calculated and reversed knowing the parameters of the camera and lens but again of course this would fall under the category of everything and everyone being a grand conspiracy so would not be considered by skeptics.


      If we are moving through the milky way at 448,000 mph why have the stars looking exactly the same since ancient times? We'd see another set of stars~?

      Due to the (alleged) distances involved those changes would be nearly imperceptible, but enough time has passed since recorded observation began that a very slight change is apparent and observed; but again of course this would fall under the category of everything and everyone being a grand conspiracy so would not be considered by skeptics.

      someone also mentioned a while back seeing mercury, I've seen it and it's only possible just before dawn, or just after sunset which is perfectly fine with what I believe, it's a non problem for those that have an understanding of spatial awareness and angles of light, the same thing with the sun and moon both being visible in the day in certain ways, there really is no problem if you carefully consider what is actually going on.

      Perhaps you have noticed a pattern, the skeptic accepts nothing as evidence that does not support their pre-determined conclusion and any excuse whatsoever that can account for it is accepted (oddly similar to the behavior of evolutionary scientists).

      There are many experiments you can perform yourself one of which being triangulation of radio emissions from space, with 3 antenna of known location when calculated timing (or with aiming 3 directional antenna)  will give you an approximate direction and distance (location) of the signal source.

      E.g. look into the ISS radio frequency "Doppler Shift" phenomenon (which I have observed myself with HAM radio) totally inexplicable with given flat earth explanations what (plane, balloon), and where (altitude, speed) regarding the ISS; I've also seen the ISS through a telescope solar panels and everything...

      Ideally  to have a proper discussion everything must be defined, what are the stars, where are they, what is the sun, where is it, what is the moon where is it, what are the satellites where are they... shape, distance, altitude, self illuminating, reflective etc...

      With that information, if it is ever provided comprehensively, you can compare it to your own observations and observations of those around the world (for example the southern hemisphere) and that is where most flat earth models in my opinion fall apart, they are very good at making explanations for single observations or logical points because in doing it one by one you can just keep changing the model to fit the needs of a particular point or observation (while potentially invalidating other explanations).

      I could go on forever writing an explanation for every single point flat earther's come up with but it didn't take me long to realize that it is a no-win situation, I'll still do it occasionally to show that it is not a completely one sided cult like dogma on the forum, which is supposed to support Bryan's ministry (who said he is vexed by flat earther's generally, and as I understand considers it a topic not even worthy of his time to study in detail, as opposed to you know... sound doctrine).

      It is about being able to differentiate between true science (observation / testing) and science falsely so called (theory / speculation) as Bryan has discussed before, I certainly have confidence in his discernment as well.

      I'm not going to spend time watching hours and hours and hours of flat earth documentaries, which are usually just reformulations of things I've already seen and considered, but whenever someone from the flat earth belief makes a concise written point form their own words and understanding I consider it.

      I think flat earth is much more likely to generally drive people away from the truth (Jesus Christ), than bring them closer, as would be it's intended purpose as a false conspiracy narrative as well as dividing what is left of bible believing fellowships.

      It basically alleges that millions of co-conspirators: astronauts (fair enough that is a pretty exclusive an problematic club) but all the masses of other regular people that would have to be involved is truly astounding and these people (fully aware and guarding the secret of the firmament dome, ice wall etc...) can not believe by faith... because they know of a certainty that God made the Earth (according to that interpretation of scripture).

      Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 
      1 Timothy 2:4

      Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 
      Hebrews 11:1

      How can you have faith in the un-seen and be saved if you have been guarding the ice wall...

      What is the center is a matter of choice and perspective, even with the accepted model you could say the entire solar system, galaxy etc is going around the Earth (from our perspective) where someone, in an abstract way, considers the center to be is kind of irrelevant.

      Which is why I believe many of these flat-earth verses are written based on the perspective or potential understanding of the ground observer because that is what it appears to do, is move from our perspective.

      Most conspiracy is rooted in truth, but I see many Christians totally failing to draw the correct line where facts and sound reasoning ends and unprovable or outright false speculation begins (similar to evolutionary science).

      That is why you have so much controlled opposition, they feed poison information, perhaps based in truth but so outrageous and over sensationalized that the average person rightly laughs it off rather than consider the small truth and validity that may be contained therein.

      Many of these "Conspiracy Christian" channels are totally devoid of sound doctrine KJV preaching, a major red flag.

      It seems much more likely (enforced by analyzing the history, timing, and social media traction of the flat-earth movement on the internet) that it is itself a propaganda narrative meant to, frankly, make Christian's look foolish and completely devoid of (true)Scientific understanding.

      I agree with the position Bryan takes, true science should always line up with scripture and it does, even by the Globe centric model (cosmic)evolutionary scientists have to make outrageously improbably explanations for what we observe to try and mate it with their deep time (millions and billions of years) theoretical models, similarly to (biological)evolutionary science.

      If a flat-earther in their own words and understanding (not hours of someone else's questionable materials) presents a model that accounts for everything I can observe, measure, test and consider myself, sure I'll believe it, but it's never even close.

      When I first heard about the flat earth, years ago, I certainly did consider it fairly as I try to do in all things, I do enjoy a good conspiracy, and still do; but there were so many flaws with so many explanations given based even just on my own personal knowledge and observation that I could not in good conscience believe or promote it.

      I don't trust NASA at all or the Government at all but that doesn't mean that everything they have ever done or said is automatically false, I make my own decision based on the merits of the facts presented, whoever presents them.

      There are so many amateurs / hobbyists, average people in Science, Astronomy, CGI, Photography/Optics, Radio, Pilots, Mariners, and on and on that corroborate what is widely known that you don't have to trust NASA or Gov; Except when you cross that line into the theoretical than you are trusting much larger (controlled) organizations / equipment unavailable to the hobbyist.

      It is of no importance to me which it is, flat or round; my issue is with brothers or sisters presenting the lies of others (usually from highly questionable sources / channels) that they themselves do not understand and pushing those lies on others that also do not understand (giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not willfully deceiving, but are they themselves deceived).

      If you have not spent(wasted) a lot of time in studying and understanding science and technology, good, time better spent on doctrine, but I spent years on that before I was saved, of course with the system trying to ram down the evolutionary deep time perspective with it, but once saved the more I actually studied it (personally) the more inconsistency and improbability I found with that evolutionary perspective, and more proof of the young earth creation perspective (even in the globe model) so to me when the flat earther conflates the globe model as intrinsically linked to evolutionary thinking that is a fair argument (being what commonly takes place) but not necessarily correct.

    • The stars are so so beautiful :(((

      I used to watch them and see them flash bright different colours.

      • Like 1
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